How to get published
with lisa milton and andi osho
In July 2023, The FLIP chaired a panel for Primadonna Festival, all about how to get published. Here, Cassie and Omara talk to Lisa Milton, Executive Publisher at HQ Stories, and author Andi Osho about the journey a book takes, from idea to publication, including the editing process, the relationship between author and publisher and advice to aspiring writers.
Primadonna is a festival for people who love books, interesting conversations, music in the sunshine and good food in a field. The weekend includes talks, workshops, performances and FUN in the beautiful setting of the Food Museum in Stowmarket, Suffolk. The line-up celebrates women, Black and Asian artists, the LGBTQIA+ community, disabled and working-class people, and creates an accessible space for people to learn more about the industry, meet people and help people get published. Find out more here.
Lisa Milton is Managing Director and Publisher for HQ, Mills & Boon and Pavilion. She joined HarperCollins in 2015 after a decade as Managing Director of Orion Publishing where she was responsible for Orion, Orion Children’s, Gollancz and Weidenfeld & Nicolson, which was awarded Imprint of the Year at the 2015 Bookseller Industry Awards. Previously Lisa was Editorial Director at BCA, the UK’s biggest book club, and prior to this she had a successful career at Waterstones, where one of her most notable achievements was opening the flagship store in Piccadilly and winning the Bookshop of the Year Industry Award in 2000.
Andi Osho’s eighteen-year career spans film, TV and theatre, from much-loved BBC dramas like Line of Duty, Death In Paradise and Holby City, to movies such as Lights Out and DC Comics’ Shazam! Other projects include Michaela Coel’s ground-breaking I May Destroy You: Kiri, which became Channel 4’s highest rated drama and Olivier-nominated The Miser – Andi’s West End debut. Andi also wrote and starred in Twin Thing on Sky Arts and E4 sketch pilot The Andi O Show. Her debut novel, Asking For A Friend was published by HarperCollins in 2021 and her follow-up, Tough Crowd, was released March 2023. Andi also hosts the Creative Sauce podcast.
There are many different moving parts that go into publishing a book. The four of us are aware of these but not necessarily everyone in our audience will be - could you give us a brief description of the steps a book goes through?
Andi: For me as an author, it all starts with the idea. My experience isn’t standard and there are so many different avenues through which people come into the publishing space. I was lucky enough to have an agent because of my stand up and he was convinced that publishers were looking for strong female voices, particularly comedy voices, and suggested I write a book. After a long time where I didn’t write anything at all, not even an idea, I wrote a treatment for Asking for a Friend, which is about three girlfriends who create a game where they ask people out for each other because they're tired of online dating. We had conversations with a few different publishers but that treatment eventually went to Lisa Milton at HQ Stories and then…
Lisa: Richard, Andi’s agent, had told me that he was really excited about Andi and what she was planning. When it came in, I read it straight away and I felt an instant joy and delight. I felt like Andi was going to give us a story we’d not read before and I wanted to know more instantly. But nothing we do in publishing is singular - the most singular thing is the writing and even that is about trying to support each author in the way that works for them. I circulated the treatment ahead of our next acquisitions meeting to decide whether we wanted to progress. This is a meeting between a cross-section of the company - sales, marketing, publicity, finance and editorial. In the simplest of terms, Sales wants something that has a track record because it’s much easier to sell something that's already sold, Marketing gets really excited about how they can connect with audiences so they want to know who the author is and how they can work with them to build a platform and Publicity wants to know whether they can sell this author to journalists and the media. Each person brings their collective expertise from their role to talk about whether we want to take the book further.
For you personally Lisa, when reading a manuscript or proposal, what makes you think ‘I have to publish this!’?
Lisa: It's really simple for me - do I want to keep reading? Do I want more? I try to give every submission 50 pages, but if I'm prepared to stay up to read it, then I think a reader will be prepared to stay up. Some people are more critical but I just start with ‘do I like it?’.
If I’m really honest, I do also think about the audience - who would want to read this? Every book only makes sense once it finds an audience and readers are what give a book life. I'm so lucky as a book publisher. I'd love to publish everyone, but I can't. My job is to be as successful as I can for each book and each author. Not every book is equal and not every part of our market can realise sales in the same way and often there is a ‘luck factor’. There are great books that don't sell copies and there are really bad books that sell a lot of copies because they become part of the zeitgeist. Ultimately, what we're trying to do is connect authors and books with readers, whether that's through librarians or bloggers, or reviewers, or booksellers, or book clubs. Word of mouth is still absolutely the most vital part of what we do.
Andi, anyone who has read your book knows that your experience as a comedian has informed your writing, but could you tell us a bit about your creative process? Did you suffer from writer’s block and how did you get the creative juices flowing again?
Andi: Personally, I don’t think writer’s block exists. If someone had a gun to your head, you could write, but it just wouldn't be very good. I think writer's block is thinking that you can't write something good, which is not the same as not being able to write anything at all. Sometimes when I get what we are calling writer’s block, it’s actually because I don't actually know enough about the world or the characters. I find that if I do a bit more work on that, I can keep the creative juices flowing.
I also have discovered the importance of really trusting the editing process. I think I had hoped when I finished that first draft that you [Lisa] would go ‘Oh my God, this is incredible. How have you done this?! We have no notes.’ It took me so long because I thought I had to perfect everything. But once I had cultivated this trust with the editing process, I took on the idea of the vomit draft and just got it all out and then went back to refine. Everyone's process is different and there's nothing wrong with that - there's no right way of doing it.
Did you take a different approach to your comedic stand-up writing to your book writing?
Andi: Stand-up is about the performance but that isn’t the case with book writing. When writing a novel that’s funny, it’s all got to be good words - you can’t hope that actors or readers will fill in the spaces - you have to do it. But at the end of the day, the work has to happen at some point and with a novel, it’s just that you're doing it all, as opposed to, say, writing a play, where the actors are going to contribute their creativity, and the director and a designer and so on. And with Tough Crowd, it was difficult because I was writing stand-up in a novel. That was kind of wild, knowing that readers might not get the nuance and performance so there was pressure to write it like well enough that people will get it.
Some authors are scared to pass their ‘baby’ to an editor. How did you find the process?
Andi: Honestly, brilliant. I don't entirely trust myself creatively. I think I sometimes do weird things - I just have left field ideas, and sometimes they're good left field ideas, but sometimes they're not. What's brilliant about an editor is they go, ‘That's weird. My advice is don't put that in the book.’
I know that some authors don't like their work being edited but I don't know if I'll ever be that person. Whilst I like creating the material on my own, I really appreciate that experienced external eye with so much more experience in publishing than I have. They also keep lots of other things in mind that I don't, like ‘How is an audience going to receive this?’ or, ‘What can marketing do with this?’ or, ‘How will the publicity experience be with the book?’ And not to say that those thoughts take away from the creative, but they’re just things that I don't have in mind. I can never imagine a world in which I wouldn't want that input to come from an editor.
Lisa: I think the thing with an editor as well is that they're they've got your back - they want the best for you. A good editor and a great editor won’t tell an author what to do - they will make notes and recommendations and then it becomes a discussion and a dialogue. A lot of it is about rhythm, space and being on the reader's journey, because when you're in your book, you can't have that same distance from your story. I think the thing we do most as editors is ask or suggest or recommend that you put something onto the page that you think is there but isn't. It’s in your head and you know it and it's part of your story and you're breathing it and you're living it, but actually, as a reader, we missed a bit. It just hasn't arrived on the page yet. And that might be half a sentence that allows you to understand where you are or it might be a whole description of a character or place. But often, that's what we do: find those little gaps.
Andi: In my experience, all the notes are so thoughtful and considerate and detailed. They really make sure that as the writer, you fully understand where they're coming from and why. I would say if you haven't experienced the editing process, don't be afraid of it, just really embrace it. I also know that everybody works with editors in a different way, because I know my first editor implied that there were writers that she was speaking to quite often whereas I would just disappear into the wilderness. So I think it's also a case of finding your own relationship with your editor as well so that it works for you.
Lisa: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And same with the agent. Obviously, you had already chosen Richard to work with you on other creative endeavours. But my recommendation when getting an agent is to not take the first offer, meet them, see if you like them and if they like you. You need to trust that person because those relationships are there to support you, to protect you, to help you. They are your backup crew, in good times and in bad. There are lots of things that we can't control so you need that person who you understand, who you trust and who you will listen to. An agent and an editor - they are vital relationships.
Let me quickly explain the traditional model of publishing. We as publishers will pay an advance against royalties against any future books that you sell in any format - with your royalty rate set out in your contract. It is always worth getting advice on a contract [the Society of Authors is a good place to go] - very simply, you will usually be paid your advance in quarters. So if you were paid £4000, you would be paid £1000 at each point - on signature, on delivery and acceptance of your manuscript, on first publication and then on paperback publication if you were published in hardback, or on completion of publicity commitments, but the amount you can get paid can vary from £500 to £500,000. Your royalties get paid twice a year, and you’ll receive a statement that shows how much has been paid out, how much you've earned and what the difference is. Hopefully you earn out, which means you then get paid further royalties. It’s a bit different to the music industry where people in the music industry get huge deals but then have no money because they have to pay for everything (recording studio time, flowers, taxis etc.). In the book industry, you do get the money. If you have a literary agent, they will usually take 15% of the sum you get from the publisher so if someone makes an offer to represent you but then asks you to pay money, then do not do it.
Lisa, you started HQ seven years ago and in that time, a lot has happened. How has your publishing strategy changed over time and what factors have led to those changes?
Lisa: For an industry that hasn't really changed its model for 100 years, it seems to be changing by the minute. When I set up HQ, I was given a wonderful opportunity at HarperCollins to create a new imprint and that doesn't happen very often. I have felt very strongly throughout my career about equality for everybody. And I felt very strongly that traditional publishing was not creating space for what we at that point called diversity. I set up HQ to be a diverse imprint. Now diversity quickly became the shorthand in publishing for ethnic diversity, which is absolutely vital and much needed, but I wanted to be creating inclusivity from a point of race, sexuality, gender, class, and ability and disability. So after about nine months, I changed my strategy from diversity to inclusivity, so that we could use that word to encompass more. I literally feel like it is my job to open the door for as many people as possible to get into publishing, be that in terms of working in publishing, or becoming published. And in my optimistic, naive state, I thought that if I created an imprint that found and championed voices from those diverse communities and created the space, that my work would at least be started. And so that’s what I did, I started that and I feel like we have made some really big, massive steps.
But the biggest challenge is reach. How do we talk to people who don't know we're here? That might be people who could work in publishing or authors and crucially, the bit that I failed to understand was audience - how do we reach new audiences? I was lucky enough to be on the advisory board of the Bradford Literary Festival, which is an amazing startup by two Asian women and it has been really successful. But when I went to talk at some events, one of the things that I learnt about the female Asian community in Bradford is that they didn't go to bookshops because they didn’t feel like there was anything there for them. It probably took me about two years to realise that I can do all the things that I'm doing but unless I can get the books that we're publishing into the hands of people who don't know books are being published for them, then actually, we're not really achieving the goal. So that's why I'm here, that's why I created Primadonna, and that's why I'm trying to do the outreach work that we do throughout the year. And I just focus on audience constantly. Most people talk to people they already know about things they have already heard about. So strategically, building audiences is my biggest problem and my biggest opportunity.
We interviewed Syima Aslam from the Bradford Literature Festival last year and it was an enlightening conversation about how she is trying to bring books to new audiences and has created a cultural beacon for the industry. It has also opened the door for other festivals as well, like the Black British Book Festival, which is in its third year and is happening in October. One of the things that we can also say is go and look for these festivals and these places where you may find audiences that fit what you're writing, and rather than just a sort of generic traditional publishing audience. And also buy the books that you want to see more of, because that does help. Demand makes more books.
When bringing a book to market, how do you decide your strategy as a team? What elements do you focus on to make a book succeed?
Lisa: What we try to do is really start the book on its journey in the right way with each team so each team brings their expertise. We quickly address who the reader is. Whether we like it or not, there are lanes within publishing, so different types of books get treated in different kinds of ways. So if you're writing commercial fiction or literary fiction, if you're writing a memoir or fantasy or crime, there are communities and there are branding and visual clues. If I held up three books now, you would probably be able to guess the genre. And that's reductive, and difficult, but that is actually what we try to do. We try to remove as many barriers for everyone.
The first barrier is actually getting this book into a retailer. So we think about which market or channel would work best: some books will only sell in a certain format and that can also depend on the economic situation. So for example, in the last recession, women's fiction didn't sell in hardback because women were spending on the family and they weren't putting books into the trolley when they were at the supermarket or going to a bookshop and spending on themselves. We have ‘£50 man’: a certain type of man who will not want to wait for a cheaper format for say, the new fantasy book from an author they love or for the latest Ian Rankin or the latest Michael Connelly - they will invest in that in hardback. We spend so much of our time doing consumer insight so we know some of those things. So you're thinking about channel, you're thinking about format, and then of course you hit ‘What's this book going to look like?’ And our author will often have a view because they have spent months and years of their life crafting the book so will inevitably have a sense of how they want it to look. So one of the first things we do as a team is we create the cover brief, because a book cover is still one of the most important signifiers, and there are things that we could do on the cover that connect to an audience in subliminal ways.
Barrier two is the bloggers and reviewers: Do they like it? Will they read it? Do they request it? So many books get sent to people and don't get read. My dad always used to say ‘Who wants to have a library of books you’ve read? I want to have a library of books I’ve yet to read’, which I completely ascribe to. But at the same time, I want everyone to read the books I send out really quickly. The reviewers and the bloggers are really important because they reflect back the confidence that you’ve seen in the work by choosing it in the first place.
From your perspective, what's one thing that you would want the other person to know in the publisher-author relationship? What would you want them to understand?
Lisa: I think, for me, the thing that I wish would happen is trust. And I think you have to earn trust. And so for a lot of authors, you're all on your own journey, there's a lot of rejection in the journey to getting a book deal and that's tough. By the time you arrive with us, and you've got the book deal, I would really want you to set aside all of the pain and the fear, and keep the hope and keep the trust. Because actually, it's loads and loads and loads of actions, isn't it? There are so many small things you have to do and I think we all get into our heads and we all worry that we're not good enough, or we lose confidence, or we find it difficult to trust because of the things that have happened to us. The thing that I would want is just to open your heart and your mind to trusting your editor. It's such a vital relationship, and they only want what is good for you. They're never going to be saying things that are not going to be good for you and your book. You might not feel that way and you might not hear it that way and you might receive it like a punch but every time we tell you something, it's done so that we can try and optimise your readership and get more copies of your book into readers’ hands.
Andi: I would like to caveat what I’m going to say because HQ has been brilliant and Lisa is really an embodiment of putting your money where your mouth is. I feel a little bit spoiled that you guys are my publishers because there are a lot of conversations going on for authors of colour about how inclusive this space really is. But what I wanted to say generally to decision makers in the creative space (this isn't just about publishing because it happens in TV as well) is that when the diversity and inclusion conversation comes up, it often gets buttoned with the ‘funny is funny,’ ‘cream always rises to the top’ conversation ender which doesn’t help at all- if that were true, we wouldn't be even having these conversations. It’s a constant frustration of mine. I don't even go to diversity panels anymore because I know exactly how they will go. So my one thing is to think about why you've ended up having this conversation with 200 angry Black authors or whoever it is you're speaking to and just starting to do the work. And that’s not just in terms of race - queer authors are often complaining that there's not enough representation in the space. There are only so many times that people who feel underrepresented can say what they need to say; there comes a time when it is really all down to action, not diversity panels.
Lisa: Diversity has sadly become a tick box exercise. People will say, ‘Well, I've got the diversity box ticked’ because they’ve run a competition or they’ve published one book by a queer author or a Black author or an Asian author, or they’ve got their first over-50 female author but actually, that isn't the job. I’m on my soapbox but I don't want a Black person to have to write a ‘Black book’ or a gay person to have to write a ‘gay novel’ and I hate the direction we're heading where people can only write fiction about lived experience. The whole point of fiction is blending what you don't know and what you do know. Some fiction helps us learn about the world and some fiction helps us just escape. This world that we're living in where people put others into lanes and determine what they can and can't do has just got to stop.
Can you tell us about a woman in publishing who inspires you?
Lisa: I literally have a list because there are so many women in publishing who are brilliant, but if I can only choose one person, I would choose Kate Mosse. Kate worked in publishing and saw that there were a lot of men in suits in power, that most of the prize-shortlisted authors were male and that all the prize winners, bar a few, were male. So she decided to do something about it and set up the Women's Prize, which is still as successful today as it was years ago. Kate has run the Women's Prize against the backdrop of so much negativity and difficulty with no funding or funders dropping out. She has fought so hard for a space for women and their fiction to be recognised and celebrated and I just think she is phenomenal. She is also a brilliant supporter of debut writers, of all writers and is a phenomenal Sunday Times bestselling novelist herself. What a woman.
Andi: Mine is the leadership at the Black Writers Guild. I don’t know everyone off the top of my head but Sharmaine Lovegrove, Afua Hirsch and I’m not sure if Bernardine Evaristo is officially involved but she has been really instrumental in supporting the organisation. I say these people because the organisation came about after George Floyd’s murder and these authors and professionals with careers in their own right carved out some of their time to create this organisation to advocate for Black writers. They're doing something that they shouldn't really be having to do but they are because of where we are, and I think that's such an amazing and selfless gift not only to the Black writers of the UK but also to the publishing industry. There's now a place to go to have the conversation about inclusion in terms of Black writers.