Ella Horne and Helena Gonda

Founders Ella Horne and Helena Gonda talk about the origins of The FLIP and how the platform has helped spark progressive change in the industry.

Helena Gonda is a Commissioning Editor at Transworld, a division of Penguin Random House, where she works on non-fiction with a focus on brilliant female voices including Mary Ann Sieghart's The Authority Gap.

Ella Horne is a Senior Campaigns Manager currently working at Penguin General, leading the marketing for commercial fiction debuts and brands, including Richard Osman's Thursday Murder Club series.

‘There’s power in being honest.’

Why did you decide to start The FLIP? What sparked the inspiration? 

Ella: We had regular conversations around career development as Sophie and Helena and I were all really ambitious to progress. Progression in publishing can take quite a long time–there was a pool of women who had already done it, but we couldn’t access their stories. We were also frustrated by the barriers to progression for women–many of which are caused by unconscious bias–and we wanted to take some kind of action. Sophie approached us with the name for the platform and we started working on it together. Women of colour, people from working class backgrounds, and as recent surveys have shown, people with specific regional accents, face even greater barriers and we wanted to platform women across all of these backgrounds too. 

Helena: We were definitely learning as we went! We launched with a bank of conversations with brilliant women like Meryl Halls, Sandy Mahal and other inspirational leaders who were really generous with their time. That's what tipped us off before we launched: to think, ‘There’s something here that’s striking a chord with people who have already gone on to achieve great things as well’. Part of that was what Ella touched on–a real appetite to get in touch with these women to gain advice not only for ourselves, but also so we could pass it on. That remains really important to us. 

E: Sandy Mahal was the very first interview we did. She is just incredible, and she was so open about her experiences and the challenges she faced. It was in those early conversations that we thought, ‘There's something really good here’. We didn't have grand ambitions when we launched the platform, and maybe that is a female thing as well: a tendency to say, ‘Maybe no one will read this and it will just be for us’. Obviously it surpassed those expectations!

Definitely–we all know that a lot of women have a tendency to undersell or undervalue the projects they do. Have you seen positive change over the time that you've been running The FLIP?

H: I think there's been a shift towards things that aren’t just tokenistic. While we've seen some great entry level schemes, what's really pleasing is that there are now opportunities to come in at higher levels within different companies. I hope that’s a result of clamouring for meaningful and sustained change rather than people filtering into the industry and going straight back out again. There is an appetite there.

E: I also think that on a micro level, people have started losing patience waiting for that big change to happen. For example, that salary spreadsheet where everyone was like, ‘If you're not going to give us pay banding, we will do it ourselves’. It felt like this really scandalous moment, but actually it was just people taking power into their own hands, which I found really inspiring. I know that's not how people would have wanted it to happen on an official level, but that is the power that people have–there's power in being honest. 

H: The more people are prepared to put their hands up and show that they've led the way, we’ll see more change. 

E: Nelle Andrew is a great example of the honesty we’ve seen—her blogs in The Bookseller are so open and relatable, and that wasn't something that we were seeing when I started in publishing. There's more of a trend of people willing to admit that they're human in the public eye, and then everyone else is encouraged to do it too.

‘It’s really hard to say, “I’m a person who deserves to rest and who needs to rest”. ’

Can you talk us through the early days of The FLIP and how you were feeling?

H: Oh gosh, we were definitely feeling—apologetic is the wrong word, but nervous about its reception. Ambition used to be seen as quite a dirty word, and it felt quite vulnerable for us to put ourselves out there and say, ‘I want to hear from these women, because I would like to emulate them and I'd like to achieve a fraction of their successes one day as well’. There was definitely a lot of inner turmoil going on, in a good way. 

E: That ties in with one of the big issues in publishing, and I think it's amplified for women—which is that we're all so grateful to work in the industry. We love books, it is part of our identity, and because of how competitive it is, after landing a dream job in a dream industry it’s quite hard to ask for what you want and deserve. That happens with progression and pay, but also in terms of work-life balance. It's really hard to say, ‘I'm a person who deserves to rest and who needs to rest’. We definitely had confidence wobbles around the launch, because we felt very lucky to be working at a massive commercial publisher so what did we have to be frustrated about? That was something that we just had to push against. When we launched, not every conversation we had about it in advance was hugely positive–not every single person said, ‘Yes, you must do this’. The learning from that was that if you've got something to say, it doesn't really matter if everybody wants to hear it. Because there's going to be somebody else out there who is feeling the same. It’s easy to look back with rose-tinted glasses and think that was a shoo-in for it to be successful at the time. It definitely didn’t feel like that.

What was it like when the responses came flooding in? 

H: Exciting, exhilarating, terrifying—and everything in between! It was way more than we expected, which was a blessing and a curse. 

E: We thought it was going to be a small thing! But hugely gratifying—it was this rush and I felt powerful actually, which was a new feeling to me, having been quite junior in my career. We were also on the back foot, because we thought we'd have more time to get things like a bank account in place–our newsletter platform offered a free send up to a certain number of subscribers and we went past that in two days! We managed to send our first newsletter out, but then we had to find some money really quickly. It was a good job we'd frontloaded some of the interviews because we were quite busy after that. Penguin have been generous with funding, and Transworld agreed to cover the costs of our first newsletter just to give us a bit of breathing space.

‘You are the person who cares the most about your career development.’

You’ve mentioned that it was very gratifying but also very scary and nerve-wracking. Can you tell us about any highlights of your FLIP journey? 

H: So many. One of the things that sticks out for me is the FutureBook panel that we did because that felt like something that still—a year in—was pushing us out of our comfort zone. We’d never sat on a panel or chaired one before and so to be given that opportunity, but also to be on stage with both Gail Rebuck and Crystal Mahey-Morgan—women from different backgrounds, but unified in really making waves in their industries—was really exciting. It exemplified what we wanted The FLIP to stand for. 

E: Being of equal billing with those women felt like a bit of a ‘pinch yourself’ moment. Another was when Sophie and I were at a Women’s Prize event and we started to explain the platform, and Kate Mosse said, ‘No, I know who you are. I know The FLIP’. We went on to interview her, which was another amazing moment, but for her to know about The FLIP felt like we were all part of this feminist network within the books industry, and that we’d put ourselves into the right spaces.

I also think that one of the best things we've ever done at The FLIP is handing it over to you. And that is not because we don’t love it, but because we love it so much. To work on something with the best people and build something strong enough that you can say, ‘You run with this now’—I feel a bit emotional! 

H: I completely agree. 

E: When we started, we hadn't thought about what would happen when we're not doing this anymore. The fact that what we've built is going to outlast our involvement feels like a huge achievement for us and a really big moment for The FLIP. I feel like George Washington leaving presidency! 

I was literally thinking of Hamilton when you were saying that! 

E: So, history has its eyes on you guys now. 

‘The best things for our development are often the opportunities that we spot for ourselves.’

It really does! So moving onto your careers… What have been your proudest career moments?

H: The first time I landed a competitive auction was a buzz and quite terrifying, because I had to be able to advocate really passionately. I’ve got a list as long as my arm of the near misses, so actually landing that first one was brilliant. And publishing The Authority Gap, which is core FLIP feminist messaging!

E: Seeing my name in the acknowledgements for the first time, then telling my parents and having them find it in a bookshop and then go to the back and find my name there. That felt like, ‘Oh my God, I really am a part of a business that makes books’, which I think you can forget when you're just moving words around the internet. It's a product that people hold and put on their bookshelves, so I loved that. 

How has the pandemic impacted you personally? 

E: I had quite workaholic tendencies before the pandemic, but working from home at full pace while your social life is decimated and you can't see anyone—I found that really difficult to deal with. I took a month off sick in May last year just to focus on getting mentally well. I was really unwell when I took the time off and I came back better, so that’s another proud moment. I became evangelical about boundaries and rest. You can see it echoed across all of publishing, and that is a pitfall of being really passionate about what you do. Working later and later and responding to a crisis for such a long time had a big emotional impact. I’ve got so much love for Transworld but when a secondment opportunity came up at Penguin General, which is what I'm doing now, I felt I needed that change of scene to give myself a fresh start in setting boundaries and how I wanted to work. I’m very lucky to have been so supported, but it’s been a hard time.

H: It's been a rocky couple of years. It sharpened my sense of what I really need to do my job well: collaboration and conversation is so vital, and you can't just be working in a vacuum. Editorial can be quite solitary by nature, so it’s good to actually lift your head up and make sure you're talking to the team and sharing problems–you don’t have to shoulder everything by yourself. The opportunity to come back together like in the office was a real highlight: seeing people in person again reminds you of the benefits of being able to lean on that network.  

Do you think the pandemic has accelerated that need people have to demand more from their jobs and from their work life balance? 

H: Definitely. That sense of living at work has been very keenly felt, and I think there was a moment where it felt like you were on a treadmill that never stopped. There were no peaks and troughs through the year.

E: Oh my God, where have they gone?! I still don’t feel they’ve come back. We used to have busy times and then have times where you could breathe and space to prepare. In March 2020 it switched to, ‘let's just throw everything at this because we don't know what's going to work’, and it has been really hard to pull back. I do think that people are pushing more for balance, but that is a consequence of people having lost it completely. It got worse for a lot of people and now they’re more cognizant of what they need. And you have to see it. If you're used to over delivering and giving everything of yourself to work, then how do you know? I think that's a real duty we have to junior members, to set an example that says you are more than your job.

H: And enforcing healthy boundaries—that, again, is not a dirty word. To recognise what you need and to implement that, because that will help somebody else feel confident to do that for themselves as well. 

What advice do you have for junior to mid-level publishing staff?

E: Just remember that you are the person who cares the most about your career development. I remember early performance reviews or career chats where I’d want to be told what to do next and how to shine, but actually the best things for our development are often the opportunities that we spot for ourselves, whether that's something like The FLIP, asking to shadow somebody on a project or moving on from a job when you aren’t getting what you want from it. If you want something, it doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but you can take steps in that direction. The least you should do is recognise that you're the one who wants it, so you should be most invested in taking that opportunity.

H: You can seize these opportunities or create them for yourself. It’s encouraged me to think outside the box in terms of what that might look like, giving you that opportunity to craft something that gives you a bit of a point of difference. Whether that’s wanting to gain experience for another department or whether it's shadowing something that you might not usually get access to.

E: We did an interview with Candy Ikwuwunna and she talked about how damaging negative self-talk can be, so if you tend to do this try to catch yourself. I really try now to embody this: being aware that you're trying your best and being kind to yourself. 

H: That goes for imposter syndrome too. Even if you feel like you can't do something or you're not qualified to, just put yourself out there and do it. What's the worst that can happen?

Finally, could you tell us about another woman in publishing who has inspired you?

E: We wouldn't be giving this interview and The FLIP would not exist if Sophie Christopher hadn’t been the one to put a name to and find a channel for all of our excitement about female leadership. But her influence is not just limited to The FLIP. Sophie was the biggest cheerleader of all of her friends and authors, she was wholehearted about everything that she did and she prided herself on being kind to people. I don’t think it gets much more inspirational than that. We're so grateful that she was our friend and that she chose us to do this with. 

H: While we had the privilege to know her personally, I think industry-wide it was so clear after she was gone—that outpouring from everybody she touched. She was the best person.