female leadership in publishing

at the ipg autumn conference 2023

In September 2023, The FLIP joined a panel at the IPG Autumn Conference with Suzy Astbury, Managing Director and owner of Inspired Selection, to discuss female leadership in publishing. Here, Cassie and Suzy talk to Nicky Ramsey, the Chief Executive of Edinburgh University Press, about female leadership in the industry, whether visibility of women in senior positions has changed for the better, and what we can all do to foster future leaders in publishing.

Female leadership in publishing today: is it up or down? What’s the perception? How visible are female leaders?

Suzy: It’s a tricky one, because my perception might be very different to somebody else at a different stage in their career. When we look at ‘The Big Five’, there are certainly more male CEOs than female. But if I look at this room, and at independent publishers, there are many highly inspirational women leaders, which we are very lucky to have. How visible they are, to be able to change the perception of where we’re at—I’m not sure. It depends which area of publishing you’re in. The landscape has certainly changed, and there are great examples of female leadership, but not enough for the number of women in the industry and not enough to show balance.

Cassie: There’s an unwritten rule in publishing, and in creative industries in general, that you have to be working above and beyond the scope of your official role to be seen as extraordinary in your job, and that in turn defines a ‘leader’. I personally don’t believe that to be the case, and that’s something we’re very passionate about at The FLIP. In order to be a leader, you don’t necessarily need to be visible, but I think having that visibility allows future generations of people in those creative industries to see people just being extraordinary at their job. People shouldn’t have to be forced to be visible in order to be seen as a leader.

Do you think your gender has helped or hindered your career progression to date?

Cassie: It’s really difficult to say, because we’re in a female-dominated industry. I’m a woman who works in a team of about 14 other women, and on a larger company-wide scale, it’s probably more like a ratio of 60 women and about five men. So in that case, you could argue you’re more likely to be hindered in your progression if you’re a man!

The main issue arises when another characteristic is coupled with your gender. I started in publishing when I was 22, and there were instances where people took advantage of my lack of experience and my lack of knowledge. Somebody called me the wrong name for a year, and nobody ever stuck up for me—and had someone done that, I think that would have made me feel more comfortable sticking up for myself. That’s the kind of behaviour that needs to continue as we bring up new generations in publishing. There are other characteristics that I can’t personally speak to but I’ve had conversations about, including race and disability, that when coupled with gender and age, become even more of an issue that we need to be putting support behind. There was research conducted by Creative Access in May this year that said that only 55% of people in publishing feel positive about their career prospects, and that drops even further when they’re from underrepresented groups. That alone shows how dire the situation is.

Suzy: For me personally, no, because I’ve always had a vague plan of where I wanted to get to, and not really thought of myself being a woman factoring into how that played out. If I ever felt that I’d reached a ceiling, it would be time for me to move to another organisation. And there are many brilliant resources if you want to be a leader as a woman, including fabulous books like The Squiggly Career.

It upsets me that there are so many people that are not reaching their goals of where they want to be as leaders. But I would say, as some anecdotal advice: always have a set of goals both in your career and outside of it, and always push yourself to go for something that you can’t 100% do. Men will apply for a job where they fit 60% of the job description, whereas women will only apply for jobs they can 100% do. So let’s challenge that: if you’re wanting to get ahead and you are finding that you’re hitting the ceiling, just go for it and have confidence. That way, you will grow, you will learn, and you will develop. Equally, if you’re interviewing, drill down into the skill set and concentrate on hiring for the skills as well as the person who will challenge the organisation in a different way. Don’t just keep hiring the same thing.

What are the ongoing issues for progression for females in the industry?

Suzy: The obvious ones are confidence and imposter syndrome. I’ve suffered from imposter syndrome massively, and it stops women applying for those jobs in the first place and also hinders our ability to answer certain interview questions.

Cassie: We did an interview quite recently with Lee Newman, who is the Educational Publisher at HarperCollins, and she opened my eyes quite vividly to what imposter syndrome could actually be. I think a lot of time we feel we’ve forced it upon ourselves, but Lee actually said that often, imposter syndrome is actually a series of microaggressions put upon you by society and the people around you, and by the support that is not there.

So yes, we all have a responsibility to push ourselves to be more confident and put ourselves in situations that we wouldn’t necessarily want to be put in, but at the same time, we also have a responsibility to make sure we’re not putting those microaggressions on people around us. Especially as mid-level up to top-level managers, you really need to make sure that you’re not pushing any outdated perceptions of what a woman should be onto junior colleagues. I can’t speak for all microaggressions, but Yan, who I work with at The FLIP, who is an Asian woman and gets a lot of microaggressions put upon her both in life and her career, has this great technique to handle them, which is simply to ask, ‘What do you mean?’. It makes people unpack what they’ve said and rethink, because a lot of the time it’s likely a statement they’ve not even thought through before they’ve said it.

Do you feel optimistic or pessimistic about prospects for better female representation at leadership level—and why?

Suzy: Definitely optimistic! We have the most brilliant and exciting generation entering our workforce. They are going to call out all the old-school behaviours, which are the biggest things that need to change. We are talking about change across a number of different areas. We are an industry which is made up of over 80% women, so 62% in leadership positions is good, but it should be better. There is a lot of work we can do as women to make sure we are at that proverbial table, but there’s more work to be done organisation-wide to make publishing more of an attractive place to be.

Cassie: Things have definitely changed, even in the five years I’ve been in publishing. I feel cautiously optimistic about its chances. One of the best examples to show how far we’ve come is our interview with the original founders of The FLIP, in which they described feeling almost apologetic for setting up something with the intention of challenging an industry that’s been stuck in its ways for such a long time. I can confidently say, for all three of us that currently run The FLIP, that we don’t feel apologetic for what we’re saying in our interviews and the way we’re giving voices to people that didn’t necessarily have them before. I’m not saying I don’t ever feel less confident, but when I talk about female leadership in publishing, and the intersectionality and diversity that’s needed to push the industry forward into the present day and into the future, I feel very confident about that—and I think a lot of people in my generation feel the same way.  

Do you think opportunities for female leaders have improved since Covid—and did lockdowns help or hinder progression?

Cassie: Lockdowns were such an odd time, because in equal parts they humanised and alienated people at the same time. We were suddenly in people’s bedrooms and studies and spare rooms, and you realise that the people you’re talking to, who are very senior to you, are also just human. But simultaneously, it was a little bit alienating: I remember speaking to somebody senior to me who had a dancefloor built into her kitchen, and it was a sobering moment of realising how different we were financially. Overall, I think lockdowns unlocked opportunities and potentials that weren’t there before, and that ultimately is a good thing. But there’s a long way to go in terms of how flexible working is actually working in this industry, and what the definition of flexible working is.

Suzy: I agree. A lot of the progress we made by being so inclusive when everybody worked from home hasn’t necessarily continued. As leaders, it can be hard to find a way to spend equal amounts of time with everybody in your team. People who struggle with being vocal and confident have found that to be exaggerated on team calls against those who are very present and potentially self-promoting. I think lockdowns opened our eyes to spending equal amounts of time with people in our team, and recognising everybody’s skills and strengths to be able to not necessarily promote the obvious choice each time. I’d encourage people to continue that good work and find ways for that equity to thrive amongst your team.

What can all of us in publishing do to support aspiring female leaders and get them the representation they deserve?

Suzy: There’s so many things we can do. If you’re a leader, challenge how you are leading, with that equity in mind. Think about how we can encourage and inspire young publishers to develop and to go for opportunities. As independent publishers, it can be harder to build networks, but maybe we can build those together as a group. Mentorship schemes and reverse mentorship—just spending an hour with Cassie today has been brilliant in helping to understand her viewpoint. Educate yourselves in what’s happening in the industry and the challenges and barriers. I would also recommend three publications: The FLIP, of course; Inspired’s White Paper on women in leadership; and Joy Burnford’s Don’t Fix Women.

Cassie: There are so many things we do, but I’ve boiled it down to three Ms: money, management, mentorship. From a top-level perspective, if you are a CEO or an MD, it’s very easy to say that you value talent retention, but if you’re not putting those networks behind it, and money or support behind it, then unfortunately it’s an empty statement. From a management level, give credit where it’s due. It can be really difficult if you yourself have been a victim of behaviour in which you’ve done a lot of work and somebody’s taken the credit for it, but all I can say is whenever I’ve given credit where credit is due, I have never felt anything but good. From a junior level, mentorship is massive. I have had the privilege of being mentored by two amazing women in publishing, and I’ve mentored other people myself, and the tips I came away with were just incredible. One example is a really small but physical thing to do, which is putting a recurring event in your calendar to check in on the progress of your goals. It really helps to keep you accountable without applying too much pressure on yourself.

Suzy: I just want to add one more thing, which is a lovely quote we had both heard before: leave the door open, and the ladder down.